Part 1: Legacy, Boveda 25th Anniversary | Box Press 66

Speaker: 00:00:00

(gentle guitar music)

Speaker: 00:00:00

- There's a story inside every smoke shop,

Speaker: 00:00:02

with every cigar and with every person.

Speaker: 00:00:06

Come be a part of the cigar lifestyle at Boveda.

Speaker: 00:00:08

Box Press.

Speaker: 00:00:19

[Rob] Welcome to another episode of Box Press,

Speaker: 00:00:20

I'm your host, Rob Gagner with Boveda,

Speaker: 00:00:22

and I am sitting across the founders of Boveda.

Speaker: 00:00:25

This is finally happening.

Speaker: 00:00:27

We are celebrating 25 years in business,

Speaker: 00:00:30

and we have Tim Swail and Sean Knutsen.

Speaker: 00:00:33

Thank you guys for joining me.

Speaker: 00:00:35

- [Tim] Thank you.

Speaker: 00:00:35

- [Rob] Can you believe this is actually happening now?

Speaker: 00:00:37

- [Sean] Thank you very much.

Speaker: 00:00:38

- [Rob] Turning around,

Speaker: 00:00:40

you guys are on the other side of the camera.

Speaker: 00:00:41

Typically you're behind me watching me interview Karl Malone

Speaker: 00:00:45

or some other famous person

Speaker: 00:00:46

that I have no idea who they are

Speaker: 00:00:48

and laughing at how much I'm squirming in my seat

Speaker: 00:00:52

because I don't know what I'm doing.

Speaker: 00:00:54

- [Sean] Yeah. It's interesting.

Speaker: 00:00:56

- [Rob] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:00:57

- [Sean] Well, Tim and I,

Speaker: 00:00:58

by the way, correction there,

Speaker: 00:00:59

we are two of six original founders.

Speaker: 00:01:02

So we're- - [Rob] Correct.

Speaker: 00:01:03

- [Sean] Not the two founders,

Speaker: 00:01:04

but- - [Rob] Thank you.

Speaker: 00:01:05

- [Sean] Two with four other guys.

Speaker: 00:01:09

- [Rob] Let's get into that, too,

Speaker: 00:01:10

because the way you guys even got into this business

Speaker: 00:01:14

was very unique.

Speaker: 00:01:16

You met a gentleman that made wood humidors, small ones,

Speaker: 00:01:21

and this gentleman had made you guys some humidors,

Speaker: 00:01:25

and then you ended up inviting him over to your house.

Speaker: 00:01:27

So, take us back to that first interaction.

Speaker: 00:01:32

- [Sean] First of all, if you take a look at the six guys

Speaker: 00:01:34

that got together and formed a company,

Speaker: 00:01:37

it is nothing short of miraculous that these six individuals

Speaker: 00:01:43

coming from totally different walks of life,

Speaker: 00:01:45

hardly knew each other except for Tim and I knew each other,

Speaker: 00:01:48

so that connection was there, and other than that,

Speaker: 00:01:51

one of the main individuals

Speaker: 00:01:53

was an acquaintance with the other ones.

Speaker: 00:01:55

And so here are six people who had no idea who they were,

Speaker: 00:01:57

never even really got to know each other very well

Speaker: 00:02:00

before we formed a company.

Speaker: 00:02:01

It's kind of a dominoes of destiny scenario that happened,

Speaker: 00:02:05

that's, I think, really kind of remarkable.

Speaker: 00:02:09

- [Rob] That's amazing. - [Sean] Starting with a guy

Speaker: 00:02:10

who loved cigars trying to capitalize

Speaker: 00:02:14

on the cigar boom in the mid '90s

Speaker: 00:02:16

making really cool humidors in Minnesota here,

Speaker: 00:02:22

and trying to market those at the big industry trade shows,

Speaker: 00:02:26

the RTDA show, and so on,

Speaker: 00:02:28

trying to get interviews and trying to make it happen.

Speaker: 00:02:31

And if you remember in the '90s, cigars were the thing.

Speaker: 00:02:36

And so Wall Street was taking companies public,

Speaker: 00:02:41

people were getting into the industry to capitalize on it,

Speaker: 00:02:44

much like they do in the cannabis industry now

Speaker: 00:02:46

where it's like a influx of so many.

Speaker: 00:02:49

- [Tim] Hollywood glamorized it, you had all of the aspects,

Speaker: 00:02:53

you had the financial, you had the social,

Speaker: 00:02:55

all coming together to create this market

Speaker: 00:02:57

that everybody really got behind and created a boon in it.

Speaker: 00:03:03

- [Sean] Yeah, restaurants and everything.

Speaker: 00:03:04

So this guy was trying to just sell his humidor.

Speaker: 00:03:08

And so he was on the Joe Soucheray Show, and-

Speaker: 00:03:12

- [Rob] And that's a radio show?

Speaker: 00:03:13

- [Sean] Yeah, that's a radio show in the Twin Cities.

Speaker: 00:03:16

I don't even know

Speaker: 00:03:17

if it's still on anymore. - [Tim] I think it's still on.

Speaker: 00:03:18

Been around a long time,

Speaker: 00:03:19

but Garage Logic was kind of their theme.

Speaker: 00:03:22

You see the GL and the little round stickers

Speaker: 00:03:24

on people's windows.

Speaker: 00:03:25

So he had quite a following.

Speaker: 00:03:28

- [Rob] I know Garage Logic.

Speaker: 00:03:29

- [Tim] Yeah. - [Rob] Yeah, that's famous

Speaker: 00:03:30

here, in my opinion. - [Tim] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:03:33

- [Sean] Yeah, well, this guy contacted a friend of his,

Speaker: 00:03:36

who was a acquaintance, but he's retired, he's older.

Speaker: 00:03:39

David, the humidor maker, is younger,

Speaker: 00:03:41

Dr. Albert Saari had retired from General Mills.

Speaker: 00:03:44

He called him because he had a problem

Speaker: 00:03:45

and he needed to solve it.

Speaker: 00:03:47

Dr. Al came up with a concept to solve it,

Speaker: 00:03:50

recruited a friend of his, he didn't know David,

Speaker: 00:03:53

but Al knew Bob.

Speaker: 00:03:54

And then Tim miraculously turns on the radio one day

Speaker: 00:03:59

when he is driving down the road to hear an interview.

Speaker: 00:04:01

And because he enjoys cigars, he knows I enjoy cigars.

Speaker: 00:04:05

He listened to this interview, thought,

Speaker: 00:04:06

"Hey, this is pretty cool."

Speaker: 00:04:08

Tim called, I vaguely remember the phone call.

Speaker: 00:04:11

"Hey, I heard this guy on the radio."

Speaker: 00:04:12

And thinking, "Okay, yeah, whatever."

Speaker: 00:04:14

"And it's cool. We should go buy it."

Speaker: 00:04:16

Who doesn't want a humidor?

Speaker: 00:04:18

I mean- - [Rob] Right.

Speaker: 00:04:19

- [Sean] We wanted a humidor bad and let's just go get one.

Speaker: 00:04:22

- [Rob] So was that all he was talking about on the radio,

Speaker: 00:04:24

or was he saying anything about the humidity thing?

Speaker: 00:04:28

- [Tim] No, no, no. - [Rob] So just the humidor?

Speaker: 00:04:29

- [Tim] Yeah, just the humidor.

Speaker: 00:04:30

So he was in production, small quantities

Speaker: 00:04:33

using exotic woods and was making small portable humidors,

Speaker: 00:04:37

and he hadn't scaled.

Speaker: 00:04:40

The whole idea of what he was talking with with Dr. Al

Speaker: 00:04:44

was in the background

Speaker: 00:04:45

of hopefully something could happen with that at some point.

Speaker: 00:04:48

So when I heard him on the radio,

Speaker: 00:04:51

he was talking about these woods and how strong they were

Speaker: 00:04:53

in their really cool shapes and designs.

Speaker: 00:04:55

And so I didn't catch his name or his company name.

Speaker: 00:04:59

So I called the radio station and said, "Who was that guy?"

Speaker: 00:05:03

And they gave me his information.

Speaker: 00:05:04

I called him and he was super nice and just said,

Speaker: 00:05:08

"Hey, why don't you come out to my woodworking shop

Speaker: 00:05:11

and I'll show you around

Speaker: 00:05:12

and I'll show you the different wood options?

Speaker: 00:05:13

And you can choose your own."

Speaker: 00:05:16

So then that's when I called Sean and I said,

Speaker: 00:05:18

"Just had a great conversation.

Speaker: 00:05:20

What's your schedule like?

Speaker: 00:05:21

Let's go out and see this guy."

Speaker: 00:05:22

And was it Delano?

Speaker: 00:05:23

What? Maple? - [Sean] Maple Grove.

Speaker: 00:05:26

It was on Territorial Road

Speaker: 00:05:28

or Territorial Road in Maple Grove, if you're familiar,

Speaker: 00:05:30

just on the North side of 94.

Speaker: 00:05:33

- [Rob] I'm familiar. I'm from Maple Grove.

Speaker: 00:05:35

- [Sean] Yeah, over there, rural area, woodworking shop

Speaker: 00:05:37

out in the middle of just a- - [Rob] A corn field?

Speaker: 00:05:40

- [Sean] Kind of, pretty much. - Pretty much.

Speaker: 00:05:42

- Pretty much, we went out there

Speaker: 00:05:43

and there wasn't much of this guy's shop.

Speaker: 00:05:46

He was sharing a shop with Noel,

Speaker: 00:05:48

who is also one of the founders.

Speaker: 00:05:49

So Noel owned the woodworking shop.

Speaker: 00:05:50

- [Rob] Yeah, because Noel's a cabinet guy.

Speaker: 00:05:52

- [Sean] Noel's a total cabinet.

Speaker: 00:05:53

That's how Noel- - [Rob] Cabinet building.

Speaker: 00:05:54

- [Sean] Is rounding out the six founders, Noel,

Speaker: 00:05:57

because he owned that shop. - [Rob] This is so crazy.

Speaker: 00:05:59

- [Sean] And so there was,

Speaker: 00:06:00

he kind of didn't have anything to do with the business

Speaker: 00:06:03

in the sense of that,

Speaker: 00:06:04

but was connected to David because of that.

Speaker: 00:06:08

- [Rob] So Noel being a cabinet maker and

Speaker: 00:06:09

then all of a sudden

Speaker: 00:06:11

getting into the humidification business, bizarre.

Speaker: 00:06:15

To think that like where your life leads you,

Speaker: 00:06:18

you have no idea. - [Sean] Oh, yeah.

Speaker: 00:06:21

Like I said, going back, I mean, we're talking,

Speaker: 00:06:24

you can almost say a few short weeks.

Speaker: 00:06:25

Now, the concept of controlling the humidity

Speaker: 00:06:28

came back in probably early '96 or even 1995

Speaker: 00:06:32

when David originally had the problem.

Speaker: 00:06:35

But fast-forward now toward the end of 1996

Speaker: 00:06:38

is when we get got involved.

Speaker: 00:06:39

But the humidity, this product and technology

Speaker: 00:06:42

was not discussed or nowhere on the surface at this point.

Speaker: 00:06:48

When we went to see David,

Speaker: 00:06:49

he had these small humidors, they're really cool.

Speaker: 00:06:52

They're actually wood

Speaker: 00:06:52

and they're designed to go into a big jacket,

Speaker: 00:06:55

but we wanted something bigger, like a cabinet.

Speaker: 00:06:59

So we thought, because in Cigar Aficionado,

Speaker: 00:07:01

a company called Vigilant

Speaker: 00:07:02

was advertising these big cabinets.

Speaker: 00:07:04

We always thought, "Hey, that's pretty neat.

Speaker: 00:07:06

David, can you make this?"

Speaker: 00:07:08

He said, "Yeah, I can make that for you guys."

Speaker: 00:07:10

And this was in late 1996, September October-ish '96,

Speaker: 00:07:16

probably September of '96.

Speaker: 00:07:18

We said, "I'd like a black walnut."

Speaker: 00:07:20

Tim said, "I'd like a cherry wood.

Speaker: 00:07:22

Great, see you later. Here's a down payment or..."

Speaker: 00:07:26

And- - And that was it.

Speaker: 00:07:27

- [Tim] Roughly the dimensions

Speaker: 00:07:27

and- - [Rob] Just to get a humidor

Speaker: 00:07:28

made.

Speaker: 00:07:31

- [Tim] Yeah. - [Rob] Cabinet maker,

Speaker: 00:07:31

basically.

Speaker: 00:07:34

- [Sean] Yeah. - [Rob] Cigars.

Speaker: 00:07:35

- [Tim] Woodworker. - [Rob] He's making humidors.

Speaker: 00:07:37

Did he smoke cigars, too? - [Tim] Yes.

Speaker: 00:07:38

- [Sean] Oh, yeah. - [Rob] Okay. So he smokes

Speaker: 00:07:39

cigars.

Speaker: 00:07:41

Into the culture. - [Tim] He was into it, yes.

Speaker: 00:07:42

He was totally into it. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:07:43

- [Rob] So then how long did it take to get made?

Speaker: 00:07:46

- [Sean] Well, let's go October, November,

Speaker: 00:07:47

December, January, February, March, probably six

Speaker: 00:07:48

months later.

Speaker: 00:07:53

- [Tim] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:07:53

- [Sean] Boom! We got a call.

Speaker: 00:07:54

"David here. Your humidors are ready."

Speaker: 00:07:57

- [Tim] It was taking a long time.

Speaker: 00:07:58

We were both like, "Man, what's going on?"

Speaker: 00:08:00

- [Rob] Did this guy run out on us with our down-

Speaker: 00:08:01

- [Tim] I think he said it would be like eight weeks,

Speaker: 00:08:03

two months, something like that.

Speaker: 00:08:04

And then it kept dragging on and we're like, "Oh, okay."

Speaker: 00:08:07

- [Sean] It was late March or even early April

Speaker: 00:08:09

so we're now getting into the springtime,

Speaker: 00:08:13

Easter's coming up and all of that.

Speaker: 00:08:15

We went and picked up the humidors

Speaker: 00:08:17

and it was earlier in the week.

Speaker: 00:08:20

And then that Friday night,

Speaker: 00:08:23

Tim's coming over to my house in St. Paul

Speaker: 00:08:26

with a couple other, I think it was just four us.

Speaker: 00:08:29

And we said, "Hey, David,"

Speaker: 00:08:31

because this guy was pretty interesting individual.

Speaker: 00:08:34

He was very creative, super smart, interesting guy.

Speaker: 00:08:40

So you think of the destiny of Tim turning on the radio

Speaker: 00:08:42

to hear this thing at that moment in time,

Speaker: 00:08:44

us going there and then saying, "Hey, David,

Speaker: 00:08:46

why don't you come over to my house for dinner and cigars?"

Speaker: 00:08:51

And that was a Friday night. Remember vividly.

Speaker: 00:08:55

- [Rob] So you go to pick up your humidor

Speaker: 00:08:56

and then you invite him over for dinner

Speaker: 00:08:58

because you're having this thing anyway-

Speaker: 00:08:59

- [Sean] Why don't you come on

Speaker: 00:09:00

over? - [Rob] He's a cool guy.

Speaker: 00:09:01

- [Sean] Guy seems cool. Why don't you come over?

Speaker: 00:09:01

And the guys who were there

Speaker: 00:09:03

were just guys we went to college with,

Speaker: 00:09:05

we graduated from college with, and we were friends,

Speaker: 00:09:07

we stayed friends after college

Speaker: 00:09:09

and it was just a cigar night and steaks.

Speaker: 00:09:10

- [Rob] That's kinda risky though,

Speaker: 00:09:11

from a perspective of like,

Speaker: 00:09:14

you know how you kinda have pockets of friends.

Speaker: 00:09:16

And I kinda pocket my college friends as like,

Speaker: 00:09:18

"Boy, if you get in our inner circle,

Speaker: 00:09:20

we're gonna be talking about our old days."

Speaker: 00:09:23

So you really gotta hold your own conversation.

Speaker: 00:09:27

So this David must have had

Speaker: 00:09:28

a really good conversation background

Speaker: 00:09:30

because for you to invite him

Speaker: 00:09:31

into your kind of inner circle of college buddies,

Speaker: 00:09:34

it's like, hey, that could either go really well

Speaker: 00:09:36

or really bad. (chuckles)

Speaker: 00:09:37

- [Sean] He's a very personable individual.

Speaker: 00:09:38

- [Tim] Yes. - [Sean] He makes friends

Speaker: 00:09:39

quick.

Speaker: 00:09:41

And you're right, at least for me,

Speaker: 00:09:44

typically that wouldn't be natural for me to say,

Speaker: 00:09:45

"Why don't you come on over?

Speaker: 00:09:47

We've got a history here, you don't,"

Speaker: 00:09:50

and it's a little bit odd.

Speaker: 00:09:51

- [Rob] And you're gonna

Speaker: 00:09:52

make- - [Sean] There's another

Speaker: 00:09:53

domino in the trail that happened.

Speaker: 00:09:54

It's like, "Hey, come on over."

Speaker: 00:09:56

And then that night he came on over

Speaker: 00:09:58

and I remember him putting it on the kitchen table,

Speaker: 00:10:01

this bag with this handmade pouch.

Speaker: 00:10:07

- [Tim] Handmade pouch.

Speaker: 00:10:09

- [Sean] Of course we have no clue about a

Speaker: 00:10:10

saturated salt solution

Speaker: 00:10:12

and all that, but he explained it to us and said,

Speaker: 00:10:15

"I gotta show you guys something that's really neat

Speaker: 00:10:18

that I've had made with-" - [Rob] This is the first

Speaker: 00:10:18

reveal of essentially Humidipaks/Boveda to you guys.

Speaker: 00:10:25

- [Tim] To us. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:10:27

- [Sean] And Humidipak wasn't

Speaker: 00:10:28

even- His company name was Seiyge Cigar Box

Speaker: 00:10:28

Company.

Speaker: 00:10:29

So this is kind of poignant in history.

Speaker: 00:10:30

- [Rob] Not sage the way you would spell sage,

Speaker: 00:10:33

but Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em.

Speaker: 00:10:35

- [Sean] That's right. S-E-I-Y-G-E.

Speaker: 00:10:37

- [Tim] Yeah,

Speaker: 00:10:38

- [Rob] S-E-Y- - [Sean] S-E-I-Y-G-E.

Speaker: 00:10:40

- [Rob] Y-G-E. - [Sean] Right?

Speaker: 00:10:41

- [Tim] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:10:42

So they would call it- - [Sean] S-E-I-Y-G-E.

Speaker: 00:10:44

- [Tim] See-gee, I mean, nobody ever got it right.

Speaker: 00:10:48

Nobody came out with sage because-

Speaker: 00:10:50

- [Rob] It doesn't look like sage,

Speaker: 00:10:51

it's not pronounced sage, okay.

Speaker: 00:10:53

- [Tim] But when David was there that night

Speaker: 00:10:55

and he put down this bag,

Speaker: 00:10:58

I remember it this way and Sean can clarify,

Speaker: 00:11:00

but I just remember him saying, "At the end of the night,

Speaker: 00:11:03

this thing's gonna be sitting at 75%."

Speaker: 00:11:06

So he had the prototype in there

Speaker: 00:11:08

with a hygrometer inside a bag.

Speaker: 00:11:10

And he said, "The hygrometer will read 75%

Speaker: 00:11:12

at the end of the night."

Speaker: 00:11:13

I think when it went in, it was in the 50s,

Speaker: 00:11:15

mid 50s, something like that.

Speaker: 00:11:16

- [Rob] External environment. Pretty common.

Speaker: 00:11:18

- [Tim] And lo and behold at the end of the night,

Speaker: 00:11:21

we went to that thing and it was sitting at 75%.

Speaker: 00:11:23

And we were like, "What is the-"

Speaker: 00:11:26

- [Sean] He had sodium chloride in there, obviously,

Speaker: 00:11:29

because that's table salt.

Speaker: 00:11:31

It's easiest salt to get.

Speaker: 00:11:33

And so that's what Al had made in the kitchen,

Speaker: 00:11:35

his kitchen and yeah, exactly.

Speaker: 00:11:39

"Watch and within a few hours here, this is gonna be there."

Speaker: 00:11:41

And we thought, "Oh, this is weird."

Speaker: 00:11:42

And it was in a bag.

Speaker: 00:11:43

And so, he actually shared his vision on it,

Speaker: 00:11:46

which was to say, "Hey, the cigar stores

Speaker: 00:11:48

would just sell these in the store

Speaker: 00:11:52

and just like, wow, disposal, portable."

Speaker: 00:11:54

We knew how the challenges

Speaker: 00:11:55

of being a cigar of, I say, connoisseur, or whatever,

Speaker: 00:12:01

we enjoyed it a lot.

Speaker: 00:12:03

But we didn't have a humidor.

Speaker: 00:12:04

And we had to go buy our cigars that night, that day,

Speaker: 00:12:07

because they would degrade and they would be dry up

Speaker: 00:12:09

and all of that.

Speaker: 00:12:10

So we saw that value in this really simple,

Speaker: 00:12:15

inexpensive, disposable product.

Speaker: 00:12:18

Here's what resonated in my mind

Speaker: 00:12:20

and I think it did in Tim's, too,

Speaker: 00:12:22

so when you're in sales, you can have a great month.

Speaker: 00:12:25

All right, that's awesome.

Speaker: 00:12:26

You get to the end of the month,

Speaker: 00:12:27

all right, now you're at day one.

Speaker: 00:12:28

You're at zero again.

Speaker: 00:12:30

Okay, and it's like, well, you gotta go at it again.

Speaker: 00:12:32

And it's fun.

Speaker: 00:12:34

Sales is a very difficult profession,

Speaker: 00:12:37

but it's very rewarding.

Speaker: 00:12:38

And the opportunity is great because you can make more.

Speaker: 00:12:41

And so we were both selling products

Speaker: 00:12:44

that we didn't get the residual on it.

Speaker: 00:12:47

And so, seeing this disposable product was like,

Speaker: 00:12:51

"Okay, this is pretty fascinating."

Speaker: 00:12:53

- [Rob] You invite David over for cigars and dinner,

Speaker: 00:12:58

and at the end of the night, what does David say?

Speaker: 00:13:01

So you guys see this technology, it gets to 75,

Speaker: 00:13:05

then what's next?

Speaker: 00:13:07

- [Sean] He could tell we were enamored with

Speaker: 00:13:08

this technology.

Speaker: 00:13:10

Like, this is great.

Speaker: 00:13:11

Because we had a passion for cigars and we knew, too,

Speaker: 00:13:14

Because we talked about it that night,

Speaker: 00:13:16

that this isn't just for premium tobacco,

Speaker: 00:13:19

I mean the implications from a packaging standpoint

Speaker: 00:13:25

and to commercialize it in various industries

Speaker: 00:13:27

to manage the moisture inside of packaging

Speaker: 00:13:31

to a specific point.

Speaker: 00:13:32

And knowing that we, because David told us

Speaker: 00:13:34

is we could different salts,

Speaker: 00:13:36

we could meet different humidity levels.

Speaker: 00:13:38

We knew cigars was key, big, exciting, and all that,

Speaker: 00:13:41

but it was more than that.

Speaker: 00:13:44

So he could tell that we were really enamored.

Speaker: 00:13:45

I think we hit it off in a very,

Speaker: 00:13:49

obviously this is a short period of time, okay?

Speaker: 00:13:52

You are looking at six people

Speaker: 00:13:54

who didn't know each other at all

Speaker: 00:13:56

in a matter of weeks, essentially to forming a company.

Speaker: 00:13:59

But David said, he's walking out and he said,

Speaker: 00:14:05

"Will you guys go into business with me?"

Speaker: 00:14:08

(Tim laughs)

Speaker: 00:14:10

- [Rob] What did you say?

Speaker: 00:14:11

- [Sean] It's like, well, it was pretty much in our minds.

Speaker: 00:14:15

I can't remember if we said, "Yes,"

Speaker: 00:14:16

"absolutely emphatically yes,"

Speaker: 00:14:17

or, "get back to you tomorrow."

Speaker: 00:14:18

- [Tim] Yeah, it was more of like,

Speaker: 00:14:19

"Hey, we're really interested. Yeah."

Speaker: 00:14:22

But I just remember the comment he made is he said,

Speaker: 00:14:26

"I don't have any money.

Speaker: 00:14:28

I don't know how to run a business.

Speaker: 00:14:30

And you guys seem like you're really professional,

Speaker: 00:14:33

successful at what you're doing.

Speaker: 00:14:34

I like you guys.

Speaker: 00:14:35

I need help in making this thing a reality."

Speaker: 00:14:40

In essence, I mean, that's the gist of the conversation.

Speaker: 00:14:43

- [Rob] Right. Was that kind of a red flag, though?

Speaker: 00:14:46

"Like I have no money, and-

Speaker: 00:14:47

- [Tim] No. - [Sean] Not at all.

Speaker: 00:14:48

- [Rob] No? - [Sean] No, not at all.

Speaker: 00:14:50

- [Rob] Man, somebody tells me, "You wanna go in business?

Speaker: 00:14:51

But I don't have any money."

Speaker: 00:14:52

I go, "What are you looking at me

Speaker: 00:14:54

to be the bank?" (chuckles) - [Sean] Oh, well yeah.

Speaker: 00:14:55

Well, look at it this way.

Speaker: 00:14:57

But he had all the cards, David really had all the cards.

Speaker: 00:15:01

He's really kind of the one that said,

Speaker: 00:15:02

"When you go into business, you get equity."

Speaker: 00:15:04

So bottom line is we said yes, okay?

Speaker: 00:15:08

And then he introduced us to Dr. Al Saari

Speaker: 00:15:11

and Bob Esse. - [Rob] Who is the chemist.

Speaker: 00:15:13

- [Sean] Al's the chemist.

Speaker: 00:15:14

He conceived of the idea. He recruited Bob-

Speaker: 00:15:16

- [Rob] He's the one making the saltwater solutions.

Speaker: 00:15:18

- [Sean] Yeah, he was a formulations chemist

Speaker: 00:15:19

for General Mills.

Speaker: 00:15:23

I mean, and really one of their senior chemist there,

Speaker: 00:15:27

highly respected, many patents that he's been awarded.

Speaker: 00:15:30

A lot of innovations that he's done for General Mills

Speaker: 00:15:33

and he worked in the frostings areas,

Speaker: 00:15:36

one of the areas that he worked with.

Speaker: 00:15:37

And in the frostings area, viscosity is important.

Speaker: 00:15:40

You use use thickeners, and so on,

Speaker: 00:15:43

so that you get the right texture in the frosting.

Speaker: 00:15:47

And that was a really key component

Speaker: 00:15:49

when you're making a saturated salt solution.

Speaker: 00:15:51

And so, Al's expertise

Speaker: 00:15:53

in terms of making the viscosity right

Speaker: 00:15:56

so that it actually could be mass-produced

Speaker: 00:15:58

and commercialized, and so that you would have a uniformity

Speaker: 00:16:01

from one packet to another,

Speaker: 00:16:03

and the blend, when you're at the factory,

Speaker: 00:16:04

making it in 500-gallon drums,

Speaker: 00:16:06

you need a homogenous blend, a ratio,

Speaker: 00:16:08

so the first pump that goes into the pouch

Speaker: 00:16:11

has the same ratio of salt as the last one.

Speaker: 00:16:14

And without the expertise of thickeners

Speaker: 00:16:19

to get the right viscosity,

Speaker: 00:16:21

you can't keep the salt in suspension.

Speaker: 00:16:23

And salt will just drop to the bottom

Speaker: 00:16:25

one pack would be of water, one would be too much salt,

Speaker: 00:16:28

the inconsistency would be there.

Speaker: 00:16:30

This was really key.

Speaker: 00:16:31

- [Rob] Because the salt-to-water ratio matters

Speaker: 00:16:34

right off out of the gate.

Speaker: 00:16:35

- [Sean] In terms of the capacity that you wanna get

Speaker: 00:16:37

in terms of how much water you wanted to give up

Speaker: 00:16:39

and how much you wanted to absorb.

Speaker: 00:16:41

- [Rob] So Dr. Al Saari is the salt guy,

Speaker: 00:16:44

Bob Esse is the packaging guy.

Speaker: 00:16:47

- [Sean] Yeah. - [Tim] Yep.

Speaker: 00:16:49

- [Rob] So how hard was it to figure out

Speaker: 00:16:50

what kind of packaging

Speaker: 00:16:52

you're gonna throw this in because I'm assuming it's messy?

Speaker: 00:16:56

- [Sean] Well, Al, the first iterations,

Speaker: 00:16:59

I would go to the grocery store and get film

Speaker: 00:17:01

that was underneath the like- - [Tim] The meat.

Speaker: 00:17:04

- [Sean] Ground beef, or chicken, or whatever.

Speaker: 00:17:06

And he would peel that film off and then he would seal that,

Speaker: 00:17:10

or crimp it, or what have you.

Speaker: 00:17:13

That was the first iteration.

Speaker: 00:17:14

And he knew that he needed a packaging engineer,

Speaker: 00:17:18

like Bob Esse, to bring it to the point

Speaker: 00:17:20

where this could be commercialized

Speaker: 00:17:22

to get films that were more effective, faster,

Speaker: 00:17:26

that would hold liquid.

Speaker: 00:17:27

The idea is you wanna hold the liquid,

Speaker: 00:17:29

you don't want liquid to get out,

Speaker: 00:17:30

but you want water vapor to readily go back and forth.

Speaker: 00:17:33

And up to that point,

Speaker: 00:17:35

those types of films really weren't around very much.

Speaker: 00:17:37

They were very limited.

Speaker: 00:17:40

- [Tim] Most things were in life were to either

Speaker: 00:17:41

keep it all out or let it all in, or-

Speaker: 00:17:45

- [Sean] So we went with other membranes,

Speaker: 00:17:46

or films, and so forth, that were adequate.

Speaker: 00:17:52

We've been using this one for 22 years

Speaker: 00:17:55

probably now. - [Tim] A long time.

Speaker: 00:17:57

- [Rob] We've been in business for 25.

Speaker: 00:17:59

- [Tim] Yeah. - [Sean] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:18:00

So after three years we finally got one that worked.

Speaker: 00:18:02

- [Rob] So it took three years to figure out

Speaker: 00:18:04

which one's gonna work the best

Speaker: 00:18:05

for this current application.

Speaker: 00:18:07

- [Sean] Yeah, because even the first ones

Speaker: 00:18:08

we didn't realize, too, is the seals over time

Speaker: 00:18:09

could leak, and so on.

Speaker: 00:18:15

So, we had a lot of issues.

Speaker: 00:18:16

I mean, here we're selling a product,

Speaker: 00:18:18

but when you're innovating, you don't-

Speaker: 00:18:21

- [Tim] You don't know.

Speaker: 00:18:22

- [Sean] Your accelerated testing that you do in the lab

Speaker: 00:18:24

doesn't necessarily translate always to real-world examples.

Speaker: 00:18:27

And so, we ran into issues.

Speaker: 00:18:33

I mean, we had some big ones, trust me, that were...

Speaker: 00:18:37

- [Tim] So, I mean, the film was really important

Speaker: 00:18:39

because you want speed of water vapor transfer

Speaker: 00:18:43

but you want strength of seal,

Speaker: 00:18:45

durability of the film in itself

Speaker: 00:18:48

to be able to hold take pressure and movement

Speaker: 00:18:51

because it's in portable pieces.

Speaker: 00:18:53

- [Rob] I've been at trade shows where I stand on.

Speaker: 00:18:55

And I say, "Look it, if you jump on it, it's gonna break

Speaker: 00:18:58

but if you just stand on it,

Speaker: 00:18:59

we have industrial-strength seals."

Speaker: 00:19:03

- [Sean] Tim and I did that for Carlos Fuente

Speaker: 00:19:06

at the Hyatt Hotel near the O'Hare Airport-

Speaker: 00:19:10

- You stood on the- - At the Big Smoke in Chicago.

Speaker: 00:19:12

We knew that Fuente was a juggernaut in the industry.

Speaker: 00:19:15

And Tim would hound him like white on rice.

Speaker: 00:19:19

It was like just non-stop. (chuckles)

Speaker: 00:19:23

That was great. - [Rob] If you were gonna go

Speaker: 00:19:25

into the cigar biz, Fuente is top.

Speaker: 00:19:27

- [Sean] Yeah. - [Tim] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:19:28

Go to the Michael Jordan,

Speaker: 00:19:29

go to the Wayne Gretsky, so. - [Rob] Exactly.

Speaker: 00:19:31

- Who controls the most amount of tobacco?

Speaker: 00:19:33

Who's hot in the market? Let's go.

Speaker: 00:19:35

- [Tim] Yep.

Speaker: 00:19:36

- [Sean] So we were sharing our vision.

Speaker: 00:19:39

And our vision was to give consumers an opportunity

Speaker: 00:19:42

to experience the cigar

Speaker: 00:19:45

in the same condition as where they're made,

Speaker: 00:19:49

in the Caribbean.

Speaker: 00:19:50

- [Rob] Beause Carlito has said that before,

Speaker: 00:19:51

he'll smoke a cigar in the D.R., tastes great,

Speaker: 00:19:55

he'll go and travel to events in the States,

Speaker: 00:19:57

smoke his product off the shelf, and it just doesn't have

Speaker: 00:20:02

all the flavor.

Speaker: 00:20:03

- [Tim] Missing something. Yes.

Speaker: 00:20:04

- [Sean] There are harsh

Speaker: 00:20:04

realities- - [Rob] So, he knew-

Speaker: 00:20:06

- [Sean] There are harsh realities that happen

Speaker: 00:20:07

when that cigar,

Speaker: 00:20:09

that container leaves the docks

Speaker: 00:20:12

in Central America or the Caribbean,

Speaker: 00:20:14

and they go through distribution,

Speaker: 00:20:17

they go through their checkpoints.

Speaker: 00:20:18

- [Rob] It's the gap.

Speaker: 00:20:19

You're not able to control that gap.

Speaker: 00:20:21

Once it leaves the factory-

Speaker: 00:20:22

- [Sean] That's right. - [Tim] You lose all control.

Speaker: 00:20:24

- [Rob] You got humidity and temperature changes

Speaker: 00:20:26

that are gonna go from 100% humidity if it's on the boat

Speaker: 00:20:30

to 120 degrees, 190 degrees in some cases.

Speaker: 00:20:35

So boy, your cigars are gonna get toasted.

Speaker: 00:20:38

- [Sean] Yeah, and even,

Speaker: 00:20:39

even if the wrapper is not cracked when you get there,

Speaker: 00:20:41

that whole process of temperature change

Speaker: 00:20:43

and the cigar is actually giving off

Speaker: 00:20:48

its moisture in the tobacco.

Speaker: 00:20:51

And along with that, you're getting some release

Speaker: 00:20:54

of those natural oils and sugars in there.

Speaker: 00:20:56

And it's just kinda degrading over time.

Speaker: 00:20:57

So you're losing some of the strength, and the oomph,

Speaker: 00:21:00

and the character and the flavor

Speaker: 00:21:02

that's in the tobacco itself.

Speaker: 00:21:04

And when we talked to Carlito about this,

Speaker: 00:21:07

and this is through talking to Dr. Al, and so forth,

Speaker: 00:21:10

and understanding the plant from a totally different way

Speaker: 00:21:15

that historically, or traditionally,

Speaker: 00:21:18

these time-honored and these experts

Speaker: 00:21:20

that really know their stuff.

Speaker: 00:21:23

And so Carlito recognized that

Speaker: 00:21:24

because he knew when he would get to the States that,

Speaker: 00:21:28

"Yeah, the cigars are good,

Speaker: 00:21:29

but they're not like they are there

Speaker: 00:21:31

before they go through that whole process of distribution."

Speaker: 00:21:33

- [Rob] Right, and what I think is interesting is,

Speaker: 00:21:35

as you burn a cigar, the part that's actually burning,

Speaker: 00:21:39

that's not the part you're tasting.

Speaker: 00:21:41

You're tasting just a few millimeters before it,

Speaker: 00:21:46

those oils and sugars are heating up,

Speaker: 00:21:47

and that's what you're tasting.

Speaker: 00:21:48

That's why if you get it too hot,

Speaker: 00:21:51

it's like bitter and- - [Tim] Bitter, yeah.

Speaker: 00:21:52

- [Rob] You burned all those oils and sugars too much.

Speaker: 00:21:55

- [Sean] That's right. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:21:56

- [Rob] So it's amazing that...

Speaker: 00:21:58

But you don't think of that. - [Sean] Well, yeah.

Speaker: 00:21:59

- [Rob] I didn't think of that.

Speaker: 00:22:01

I worked in a tobacco shop, I did the whole thing.

Speaker: 00:22:04

Come to Boveda and I'm like, "Boy,

Speaker: 00:22:06

this thing is not the same thing

Speaker: 00:22:09

that I remember at the tobacco shop

Speaker: 00:22:11

because now it brings on a whole new meaning, understanding.

Speaker: 00:22:13

- [Sean] Yeah, one of the most important things

Speaker: 00:22:15

is the temperature that you're burning your cigar at,

Speaker: 00:22:18

how much you're gonna enjoy it.

Speaker: 00:22:19

- [Rob] It's a night-and-day difference

Speaker: 00:22:22

after you actually give a minute to two minutes

Speaker: 00:22:25

depending, well, sometimes this cigar, three minutes,

Speaker: 00:22:28

four minutes to let it cool down.

Speaker: 00:22:30

And then two, Jochy Blanco, who we work with very well,

Speaker: 00:22:34

said slower draws.

Speaker: 00:22:37

Not like big ones to heat it up,

Speaker: 00:22:42

just nice slow draw and you'll taste so many more flavors.

Speaker: 00:22:48

- [Tim] So true. - [Rob] I digress.

Speaker: 00:22:49

That's just blows my mind because just that simple tip

Speaker: 00:22:52

can get you to totally change the flavor of a cigar.

Speaker: 00:22:56

- [Sean] We sat down with Carlito in Vegas.

Speaker: 00:22:58

I remember that you and me and, maybe even Bob, I think.

Speaker: 00:23:02

- [Tim] I think it was Bob, yes.

Speaker: 00:23:05

- [Sean] We shared our technology with him.

Speaker: 00:23:06

We told him what it could do.

Speaker: 00:23:07

That this can add moisture and remove.

Speaker: 00:23:11

He said, "That's good."

Speaker: 00:23:12

He said, "Because if you're just a humidifier,

Speaker: 00:23:15

I want nothing to do with this."

Speaker: 00:23:17

- [Rob] He didn't want a one-way humidifier.

Speaker: 00:23:18

He wants moisture to come out.

Speaker: 00:23:20

- [Sean] Too much moisture is bad.

Speaker: 00:23:22

Too little moisture is bad.

Speaker: 00:23:24

You need to just really hold it.

Speaker: 00:23:25

And so that really resonated with him

Speaker: 00:23:27

which was interesting because all the other major companies

Speaker: 00:23:32

that we sat down with

Speaker: 00:23:33

they're just like, that didn't connect with them.

Speaker: 00:23:36

- [Rob] They weren't thinking that way.

Speaker: 00:23:37

- [Sean] Because we were meeting with executives.

Speaker: 00:23:40

- Carlito's a tobacco guy. - [Rob] They weren't growers.

Speaker: 00:23:44

- [Sean] And he knows this through his father,

Speaker: 00:23:49

and through his grandfather,

Speaker: 00:23:50

and through his experience from the time he was a kid.

Speaker: 00:23:54

And so, he understood it in a different way.

Speaker: 00:23:56

And so when we shared it with him, bang,

Speaker: 00:23:59

now we had somebody who was genuinely interested.

Speaker: 00:24:02

And he said, "If you do what you say it'll do,

Speaker: 00:24:05

this thing's gonna change the industry."

Speaker: 00:24:06

- [Tim] This will change it. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:24:07

- [Rob] Is that where you stood on the pack?

Speaker: 00:24:10

- [Tim] No, that was- - [Sean] Not yet.

Speaker: 00:24:11

- Not yet, yeah.

Speaker: 00:24:12

- [Rob] We're getting back to that, eventually.

Speaker: 00:24:14

- [Tim] We're eventually getting there.

Speaker: 00:24:15

No, what was great is that Sean crafted the language

Speaker: 00:24:20

around oils and sugars, and the fluctuations,

Speaker: 00:24:23

and eliminating that.

Speaker: 00:24:24

It stuck with Carlito because he got it.

Speaker: 00:24:27

It was an experience that he already had.

Speaker: 00:24:30

So it wasn't a big leap for him to buy into,

Speaker: 00:24:33

"You're right. That's kind of what's happening."

Speaker: 00:24:35

It was like a light bulb went off.

Speaker: 00:24:36

And then when he said,

Speaker: 00:24:38

"If you're a humidifier, I want nothing...

Speaker: 00:24:40

I'm more worried about too much moisture

Speaker: 00:24:42

than I am not enough in a lot of the packaging."

Speaker: 00:24:44

And you notice that when you go to the Dominican Republic,

Speaker: 00:24:47

if it's outside raining

Speaker: 00:24:48

and cigars are sitting on the counter,

Speaker: 00:24:50

they are sucking up the excess humidity.

Speaker: 00:24:55

- [Rob] So had he invited you down

Speaker: 00:24:56

and you had already talked to him

Speaker: 00:24:58

and you were negotiating the deal.

Speaker: 00:25:01

- [Sean] Let's back up because Tim sent samples first.

Speaker: 00:25:04

He goes, "Just send me some of your product."

Speaker: 00:25:06

This is a absolute crucial component to the story

Speaker: 00:25:12

to get to convince Carlito that he's on the right track.

Speaker: 00:25:16

Because he said, well, he conceptually loved it,

Speaker: 00:25:19

understood everything, resonated with him.

Speaker: 00:25:21

So Tim got some samples down there to him.

Speaker: 00:25:23

- [Tim] Yeah, so I sent samples, and you have to realize,

Speaker: 00:25:26

Carlito is really hard to get ahold of.

Speaker: 00:25:28

I mean, this isn't like, "Oh, I just make a phone call

Speaker: 00:25:30

and maybe," it's like 10, 15 dials,

Speaker: 00:25:34

and eventually he got back.

Speaker: 00:25:37

And the phone never came my direction.

Speaker: 00:25:40

All of a sudden, one day caller ID and it's coming from-

Speaker: 00:25:44

- [Sean] It was late in the afternoon, if I remember.

Speaker: 00:25:45

- [Tim] Yeah, it was coming from Carlos Fuente, Jr.

Speaker: 00:25:48

And I'm like, "What the heck?"

Speaker: 00:25:49

- [Rob] "He's calling me?"

Speaker: 00:25:51

- [Tim] "He's calling me?"

Speaker: 00:25:52

Yeah, as a sales guy,

Speaker: 00:25:53

you're finally like, "Oh, this might be the breakthrough.

Speaker: 00:25:55

I hope everything's okay."

Speaker: 00:25:57

And so he had called and he said,

Speaker: 00:26:00

"Hey, I gotta let you know

Speaker: 00:26:02

that the samples that you sent to me,

Speaker: 00:26:05

I stored some Opus X with those,

Speaker: 00:26:08

let them sit for a little while."

Speaker: 00:26:10

And he goes, "I decided to pull one of those out

Speaker: 00:26:14

to smoke it."

Speaker: 00:26:14

And he goes, "It was so good.

Speaker: 00:26:17

It was so good it's like I wanted to eat the cigar."

Speaker: 00:26:20

He goes, "I don't know what you guys have or what you do,

Speaker: 00:26:23

but this is unbelievable."

Speaker: 00:26:25

He goes, "I just thought maybe it was mine,

Speaker: 00:26:29

my own experience.

Speaker: 00:26:30

So then I gave a cigar to my dad and I said,

Speaker: 00:26:32

'Dad, smoke this and just tell me what you think of it.'"

Speaker: 00:26:35

And he smoked it, ended up having a great experience

Speaker: 00:26:39

said, "That was a great cigar. What did you do to it?

Speaker: 00:26:42

Why was it different?"

Speaker: 00:26:43

And then Carlito shared it with him

Speaker: 00:26:45

that it was stored with, back then we were called Humidipak.

Speaker: 00:26:49

And that was really the spike and the catalytic convert,

Speaker: 00:26:55

the catalyst that kind of got us to a point

Speaker: 00:26:57

where he got over, right, the catalyst?

Speaker: 00:26:59

- [Tim] The catalyst. - [Sean] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:27:00

- [Rob] Definitely not the catalytic converter.

Speaker: 00:27:02

- [Tim] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:27:04

That got us over the hump with him.

Speaker: 00:27:07

So there was all these little pieces to the puzzle

Speaker: 00:27:09

that were kinda catching him at the right time.

Speaker: 00:27:11

But then he smoked a cigar that had been stored with us

Speaker: 00:27:15

and he was, I just will never forget it,

Speaker: 00:27:17

he was like, "Oh, it's like I wanted to eat it.

Speaker: 00:27:19

It was so good." - [Rob] How do you get the guy

Speaker: 00:27:21

who makes some of the best cigars in the world

Speaker: 00:27:23

to enjoy a cigar even better?

Speaker: 00:27:25

- [Tim] He did. I mean...

Speaker: 00:27:28

- [Rob] At that point- - [Tim] Thank you.

Speaker: 00:27:29

- [Rob] I would be riding high. I'd be like, "Oh my God.

Speaker: 00:27:32

I impressed the toy maker so much just now that this is it."

Speaker: 00:27:37

So then what happened next?

Speaker: 00:27:39

- [Tim] Then we...

Speaker: 00:27:40

- [Sean] Well, he invited us down there.

Speaker: 00:27:42

So we're leading up to this O'Hare Hilton,

Speaker: 00:27:47

there at the Hyatt, the Hyatt O'Hare

Speaker: 00:27:49

for the Big Smoke coming up.

Speaker: 00:27:51

And we had, by this time we had gone down there

Speaker: 00:27:54

to see him to advance this.

Speaker: 00:27:57

I believe we went down there first.

Speaker: 00:27:59

- Yeah, we'd already been down, yeah.

Speaker: 00:27:59

- So we're getting close to now,

Speaker: 00:28:01

we're trying to put together this deal with him.

Speaker: 00:28:06

We said, "We wanna be in all your boxes.

Speaker: 00:28:08

Here you put the water drop on the outside

Speaker: 00:28:10

to indicate to the world that these are protected

Speaker: 00:28:14

with two-way humidity control and-

Speaker: 00:28:16

- [Rob] It's like the Intel chip sticker.

Speaker: 00:28:19

- [Sean] Yeah. - [Rob] It's like, "Here we

Speaker: 00:28:19

go. Let's go." - [Sean] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:28:21

- [Rob] These are protected.

Speaker: 00:28:23

- [Sean] So remember that deal with Lane Limited.

Speaker: 00:28:26

- [Rob] Yeah. Yes.

Speaker: 00:28:27

- [Sean] So product that was the previous generation

Speaker: 00:28:30

of our product.

Speaker: 00:28:31

The biggest cigar catalog in the world at the time,

Speaker: 00:28:38

there were others,

Speaker: 00:28:39

but this was by far and away, 1-800 JR Cigar.

Speaker: 00:28:45

On the very back cover,

Speaker: 00:28:48

they were talking about this Space Age Humidipak,

Speaker: 00:28:53

gooey stuff that leaks on everything.

Speaker: 00:28:57

And because on all those Lane Limited cigars,

Speaker: 00:29:00

the product leaked.

Speaker: 00:29:01

And so they had actually,

Speaker: 00:29:03

when Consolidated bought Lane Limited,

Speaker: 00:29:07

they contacted JR Cigar and said,

Speaker: 00:29:09

"Hey, we've got this whole inventory that's worthless.

Speaker: 00:29:12

You wanna buy it?"

Speaker: 00:29:13

He bought it for pennies on the dollar.

Speaker: 00:29:15

He says, "I'll make money with this thing."

Speaker: 00:29:17

And he said, "All you gotta do

Speaker: 00:29:19

is go on the back of your "MAD" comic magazine

Speaker: 00:29:21

and order up one of those x-ray vision glasses

Speaker: 00:29:24

to see through whether they're good or not."

Speaker: 00:29:26

Now that's what we did.

Speaker: 00:29:27

He said, "We bought these x-ray vision glasses.

Speaker: 00:29:30

We're not sure how good these glasses are.

Speaker: 00:29:32

So if you buy one and they're all leaked

Speaker: 00:29:35

with this goo on it, you own them.

Speaker: 00:29:37

There's no returns on this product."

Speaker: 00:29:40

- [Rob] So he's just playing Russian roulette.

Speaker: 00:29:42

Like, here. - [Sean] He's just saying,

Speaker: 00:29:44

it was like devastating for us.

Speaker: 00:29:46

- [Tim] Buy it at your own risk, but he announces,

Speaker: 00:29:48

I mean, this is like, okay, this is

Speaker: 00:29:50

a major setback for us. - [Rob] We know the problem

Speaker: 00:29:52

and you, the consumer, can take the risk.

Speaker: 00:29:54

You can either score big for pennies on the dollar,

Speaker: 00:29:57

or you got a gooey mess and thank Humidipak.

Speaker: 00:30:01

- [Sean] And we don't have a known brand at this time.

Speaker: 00:30:05

We're trying to introduce a whole new concept.

Speaker: 00:30:06

No one has ever seen a product at this point

Speaker: 00:30:11

that's in packet form, disposable to protect cigars.

Speaker: 00:30:15

As far as two-way humidity control-

Speaker: 00:30:15

- [Rob] Consumers don't really know you.

Speaker: 00:30:17

- [Sean] Nobody even knew that concept.

Speaker: 00:30:19

The owner of that catalog company, JR Cigar,

Speaker: 00:30:22

happened to go down to the D.R. and on the way back,

Speaker: 00:30:25

to or from, whatever, he sat in first class next to Carlito.

Speaker: 00:30:29

And he told him, Carlito said, "What do you think of this?"

Speaker: 00:30:32

And he says, "Whatever you do, do not do that, Carlito.

Speaker: 00:30:35

You do not need to use this."

Speaker: 00:30:38

"I'm being told by some really people

Speaker: 00:30:41

who are entrenched in this industry

Speaker: 00:30:42

that I am really making a major mistake if I do this thing.

Speaker: 00:30:47

I don't think I can do it.

Speaker: 00:30:48

I'm not sure that this is strong enough."

Speaker: 00:30:50

And so when we are at the O'Hare,

Speaker: 00:30:52

the Hyatt by the O'Hare airport for the Big Smoke,

Speaker: 00:30:58

we intercept him, like, "Carlito!"

Speaker: 00:31:00

We were like, because we don't know-

Speaker: 00:31:00

- [Rob] Because I'm sure he's dodging.

Speaker: 00:31:02

- [Sean] Oh, yeah.

Speaker: 00:31:03

We're like now we've got a group of us here,

Speaker: 00:31:05

him and his little entourage,

Speaker: 00:31:07

and Tim and I trying to show him,

Speaker: 00:31:09

"Look at how strong this is."

Speaker: 00:31:10

We're trying to break it.

Speaker: 00:31:11

- [Tim] We have a new film.

Speaker: 00:31:12

You got it, we have a new film. We've got new technology.

Speaker: 00:31:15

This is where we're at.

Speaker: 00:31:17

So we had him at the height of like ready to go

Speaker: 00:31:20

and now he's down here like,

Speaker: 00:31:22

"I've been told by somebody I really respect

Speaker: 00:31:25

I'm absolutely crazy to do this for my brand."

Speaker: 00:31:27

- [Rob] He's further down than when you first talked to him.

Speaker: 00:31:28

- [Tim] (laughing) Yeah, probably yes.

Speaker: 00:31:31

- [Rob] He's beyond that.

Speaker: 00:31:32

Like, "Okay, I'm interested."

Speaker: 00:31:34

- [Sean] He has a lot to risk.

Speaker: 00:31:36

They don't even take an order.

Speaker: 00:31:38

They just shipped at this time, ship cigars to retailers.

Speaker: 00:31:41

Retailers take- - [Rob] You get what you get.

Speaker: 00:31:42

- [Tim] They had an ARP,

Speaker: 00:31:43

an automatic- They show up, they buy them.

Speaker: 00:31:45

- [Rob] If you turn them down, you're an idiot.

Speaker: 00:31:47

- [Tim] You may not get another shipment.

Speaker: 00:31:49

- [Rob] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:31:50

- [Sean] So we were doing our best.

Speaker: 00:31:52

Like, "Carlito, I get it.

Speaker: 00:31:54

This has improved. This is the ticket."

Speaker: 00:31:58

- [Rob] Did that resonate with him?

Speaker: 00:32:00

- [Sean] Yeah, well, it did.

Speaker: 00:32:01

We stood on the product.

Speaker: 00:32:03

We did what you were doing, I mean, we stood on this.

Speaker: 00:32:05

Carlito, "Here.

Speaker: 00:32:06

Try to break it." - [Tim] Yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:07

Try and break it.

Speaker: 00:32:08

- [Sean] As a matter of fact, do break it.

Speaker: 00:32:09

- [Tim] Do what you can.

Speaker: 00:32:11

I mean, he sat there, he was pulling on this thing,

Speaker: 00:32:13

he just couldn't- - [Rob] Is this the film

Speaker: 00:32:13

that we have now?

Speaker: 00:32:14

- [Sean] Yes. - [Tim] Yes.

Speaker: 00:32:15

- He was sitting there pulling, he couldn't.

Speaker: 00:32:17

It was like, (groaning) it was stretching.

Speaker: 00:32:18

- [Rob] No, you can't rip it, you can't tear it.

Speaker: 00:32:21

- [Tim] And he was worried about the contents.

Speaker: 00:32:24

"Okay. So what does this do?"

Speaker: 00:32:27

Explaining it's just salt and water

Speaker: 00:32:29

and food gumming agent, I mean, it's all FDA,

Speaker: 00:32:32

it's all food-grade ingredient.

Speaker: 00:32:34

So we did end up puncturing it

Speaker: 00:32:37

because he just wanted to taste it and it's salty,

Speaker: 00:32:40

it's very, very bitter, but yeah, he stood on it.

Speaker: 00:32:44

He couldn't break it, but...

Speaker: 00:32:46

- [Sean] He wanted this to work. He wanted to do it.

Speaker: 00:32:49

We knew that very much.

Speaker: 00:32:51

He wanted to pioneer. He is an innovator.

Speaker: 00:32:53

He didn't have to do it,

Speaker: 00:32:55

but he wanted to show the industry the future.

Speaker: 00:32:58

And he's got a number of these situations

Speaker: 00:33:01

when you go down to see the factory,

Speaker: 00:33:02

of the things that they would innovate or be first in,

Speaker: 00:33:04

and this is one that he wanted to be first.

Speaker: 00:33:06

So he did want it to work.

Speaker: 00:33:08

He created with his designer

Speaker: 00:33:12

an absolute stellar packaging.

Speaker: 00:33:17

- [Rob] It's gorgeous. - [Sean] Custom.

Speaker: 00:33:18

- [Rob] It's still available today.

Speaker: 00:33:19

- [Sean] And we still use it to this day.

Speaker: 00:33:21

And we allow him to use that Humidipak.

Speaker: 00:33:24

- [Rob] The water droplet.

Speaker: 00:33:25

- [Tim] The other part that we did with Fuente is,

Speaker: 00:33:27

the humidor bags with the picture of Carlos Senior

Speaker: 00:33:31

and Carlito on it, that was a concept that we brought to him

Speaker: 00:33:34

and said, "You could make money with this humidor bag.

Speaker: 00:33:38

So not only are we in your packaging,

Speaker: 00:33:40

but you could have the bags."

Speaker: 00:33:41

We've come this, what 25 years,

Speaker: 00:33:45

and now a lot of companies are selling cigars in bags.

Speaker: 00:33:48

Back then they were like, "I don't know about that."

Speaker: 00:33:50

Everything's real traditional with wood.

Speaker: 00:33:52

And in a bag that devalues it.

Speaker: 00:33:55

Well, it doesn't, but anyway.

Speaker: 00:33:58

- [Rob] The sampler packs

Speaker: 00:33:59

were like- - [Tim] Sampler packs, yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:00

- [Rob] Nothing you guys were just breaking ground on.

Speaker: 00:34:03

- [Sean] Yeah, we were. - [Rob] Introducing that

Speaker: 00:34:05

to the makers.

Speaker: 00:34:06

- [Sean] One of the reasons why he wanted us to test product

Speaker: 00:34:10

is because when we know that each Humidipak,

Speaker: 00:34:14

let's call Humidipak, as we got, had 18 grams

Speaker: 00:34:18

of weight to it, of filling, salt solution.

Speaker: 00:34:23

So when those would now come to the States

Speaker: 00:34:26

and be in a humidor,

Speaker: 00:34:28

sometimes those were over 20, 22 grams of weight.

Speaker: 00:34:32

So they're pulling moisture out of the cigar.

Speaker: 00:34:34

So clearly we knew that cigars sometimes

Speaker: 00:34:38

are going in there at a higher humidity.

Speaker: 00:34:40

And so in his quest and passion

Speaker: 00:34:43

to really have understanding and to seek understanding

Speaker: 00:34:46

of everything that's going on with the cigar,

Speaker: 00:34:48

that's the beauty about working with a guy like Fuente

Speaker: 00:34:50

who was into the tobacco so much,

Speaker: 00:34:53

into the quality and consistency, in collaborating with us,

Speaker: 00:34:57

we worked just really have an understanding

Speaker: 00:34:59

of how these aging rooms, because he had multiple

Speaker: 00:35:00

aging rooms,

Speaker: 00:35:03

is how different are they from one in the same time of year,

Speaker: 00:35:09

but in addition to that different times of year

Speaker: 00:35:11

and how the changes happen based on the rainy season or not,

Speaker: 00:35:17

in the Dominican Republic.

Speaker: 00:35:18

And so when we brought down

Speaker: 00:35:20

this more expensive instrumentation, hygrometers are cheap,

Speaker: 00:35:23

you get them for a buck or $2 or, or whatever,

Speaker: 00:35:27

they're very unreliable.

Speaker: 00:35:29

But we had a scientific instrument that Dr. Al

Speaker: 00:35:33

in our lab that we had that same type of stuff

Speaker: 00:35:35

they would use in General Mills that would do-

Speaker: 00:35:37

- [Rob] What's the cost of the instrumentation?

Speaker: 00:35:39

- [Tim] Four or 500, they were expensive.

Speaker: 00:35:39

Four to 500 bucks? - [Sean] Just under

Speaker: 00:35:41

1,000 bucks.

Speaker: 00:35:43

$800 maybe at the time, probably cheap now, but.

Speaker: 00:35:46

- [Rob] And the water activity machine, that's eight?

Speaker: 00:35:47

- [Sean] That's about six,

Speaker: 00:35:48

7,000, 8,000 bucks. - [Rob] Six, 7,000.

Speaker: 00:35:50

So you guys are going to Fuente with this stuff?

Speaker: 00:35:52

- [Tim] Yes. - [Sean] Yeah, we were using

Speaker: 00:35:53

those expensive water activity machines in the lab.

Speaker: 00:35:56

Did we bring the water activity-

Speaker: 00:35:57

- [Tim] Yeah, we did. Yes.

Speaker: 00:35:58

- [Sean] Yeah, that's right.

Speaker: 00:35:59

We brought that down there. - [Rob] A $7,000 machine

Speaker: 00:36:02

brought to Fuente.

Speaker: 00:36:04

- [Sean] Yeah, so we had the $800 hygrometer, the wand,

Speaker: 00:36:09

and then the water activity machine.

Speaker: 00:36:11

So we would say, "Here's the ambient right now.

Speaker: 00:36:14

And now let's splice up these cigars

Speaker: 00:36:16

and get readings on what the water activity is."

Speaker: 00:36:19

And so he was blown away at like, "Holy cow!"

Speaker: 00:36:23

And some rooms were a little bit more than others,

Speaker: 00:36:25

and so forth.

Speaker: 00:36:26

So he went on a quest to fix all that

Speaker: 00:36:28

to get more consistency.

Speaker: 00:36:30

- [Rob] Tell the story about the cigar overnight,

Speaker: 00:36:32

on the rolling room floor.

Speaker: 00:36:34

- [Tim] Yeah, so part of that test process that we did

Speaker: 00:36:38

was went into one of the aging rooms, like Sean said,

Speaker: 00:36:42

we did a wand, "Okay, it says it's about 70% in here."

Speaker: 00:36:47

He felt comfortable.

Speaker: 00:36:47

Or actually, he liked his aging rooms

Speaker: 00:36:50

to be a little bit more, so 72, I believe it was.

Speaker: 00:36:53

We pulled a cigar out, did a water activity on it

Speaker: 00:36:55

and it was dead on 69 or 70%.

Speaker: 00:36:58

It was perfect.

Speaker: 00:36:59

That's like, he's like- - [Rob] Ready to go.

Speaker: 00:37:00

- [Tim] "This is where I want it to be."

Speaker: 00:37:02

Then we left that cigar on the rolling table overnight,

Speaker: 00:37:06

came in back in the next morning,

Speaker: 00:37:08

did another water activity on it

Speaker: 00:37:10

and it was at 78 water activity.

Speaker: 00:37:13

- [Rob] Way above the mold threshold,

Speaker: 00:37:14

which is 72, 75 at the most.

Speaker: 00:37:17

- [Tim] Yeah, and you were looking around his factory

Speaker: 00:37:19

and all these cigars are sitting out there.

Speaker: 00:37:21

And it was a-

Speaker: 00:37:22

- [Rob] Because they didn't get into the

Speaker: 00:37:22

aging room right away.

Speaker: 00:37:23

- [Tim] Well, at the end of the day,

Speaker: 00:37:25

they don't put everything back in all the time.

Speaker: 00:37:28

I mean, he was saying, "Okay, this is what's happening

Speaker: 00:37:31

when they're exposed

Speaker: 00:37:32

in the environment of the Dominican Republic."

Speaker: 00:37:35

- [Sean] Not on the rolling table, by the way,

Speaker: 00:37:36

in the packaging area.

Speaker: 00:37:37

So they're ready to go into the box.

Speaker: 00:37:39

- [Tim] I'm sorry. The packaging area, yeah.

Speaker: 00:37:40

- [Rob] They're getting ready to be boxed

Speaker: 00:37:42

and they're put inside the aging room, right?

Speaker: 00:37:43

- [Sean] And this happens in every factory in the world.

Speaker: 00:37:46

I mean, all of them are down in the tropics, really.

Speaker: 00:37:49

So the humidity generally, depending on the time of year,

Speaker: 00:37:52

it's not always the same, of course.

Speaker: 00:37:53

- [Rob] Right. So we're going from 70 to 78.

Speaker: 00:37:57

- [Sean] And that's why Carlito loved this technology

Speaker: 00:37:58

so much is now we're gonna bring consistency throughout,

Speaker: 00:38:03

no matter what time of the year it is,

Speaker: 00:38:05

no matter what day or whether it rained today or not.

Speaker: 00:38:07

- [Rob] And how it ships. - [Sean] And how it ships.

Speaker: 00:38:10

These are gonna be consistent and they're gonna be so good

Speaker: 00:38:12

you're gonna want to eat 'em.

Speaker: 00:38:13

(all laughing)

Speaker: 00:38:14

And I wanna eat this.

Speaker: 00:38:15

- [Rob] So good you wanna eat it.

Speaker: 00:38:16

This is so good. This is very good.

Speaker: 00:38:18

- [Tim] But that did spur on,

Speaker: 00:38:19

so you were talking about how he changed things.

Speaker: 00:38:23

That was really the spark to help him say,

Speaker: 00:38:27

"I've gotta have an Opus X packing room

Speaker: 00:38:30

that I keep it at 65%."

Speaker: 00:38:32

- [Rob] And why was that?

Speaker: 00:38:33

Because you guys found out that the Don Carlos,

Speaker: 00:38:37

what we're smoking, is a Cameroon wrapper

Speaker: 00:38:42

and it can smoke way better at 70, 72,

Speaker: 00:38:46

and then the Opus smokes way better

Speaker: 00:38:48

because it's super oily and toothy at 65.

Speaker: 00:38:49

- [Tim] Yes.

Speaker: 00:38:52

- [Rob] Because in anything,

Speaker: 00:38:54

if it's over-humidified it'll mute flavors,

Speaker: 00:38:57

it won't burn off those oils and sugars.

Speaker: 00:38:59

If it's under-humidified,

Speaker: 00:39:00

they burn too quickly and get bitter.

Speaker: 00:39:03

- [Sean] So, cigar manufacturers,

Speaker: 00:39:05

traditionally always think of moisture content, okay,

Speaker: 00:39:09

they don't think in the world of water activity.

Speaker: 00:39:11

So they just think of moisture content.

Speaker: 00:39:12

- [Rob] And there's a difference between the two.

Speaker: 00:39:14

So moisture content is when we take this and weigh it

Speaker: 00:39:19

and then we dry it out and we see how much moisture

Speaker: 00:39:22

left the product.

Speaker: 00:39:23

- [Sean] How much percent water left the product.

Speaker: 00:39:24

- [Rob] In water activity

Speaker: 00:39:26

it's when we put it inside a machine and it says,

Speaker: 00:39:29

"This is how much water is actually in the product itself."

Speaker: 00:39:35

- [Sean] Yeah, water activity is measuring the water

Speaker: 00:39:38

that's really available, or active, or relevant,

Speaker: 00:39:41

because some water

Speaker: 00:39:42

is bound in the system. - [Rob] Changeable water.

Speaker: 00:39:45

- [Sean] Well, Opus, let's just use 14% moisture content.

Speaker: 00:39:50

In Opus to be at 14% moisture content,

Speaker: 00:39:52

and this may not be

Speaker: 00:39:57

the exact number, but would be,

Speaker: 00:39:58

let's say 65% relative humidity to reach that,

Speaker: 00:40:01

a Don Carlo would need to be at 70%

Speaker: 00:40:03

in order to be at that moisture content.

Speaker: 00:40:05

So the different tobaccos behave a little bit differently

Speaker: 00:40:08

and that's why some tobaccos should be in the mid 60s

Speaker: 00:40:11

and some should be closer to 70%.

Speaker: 00:40:13

Like a Cameroon wrapper, for example,

Speaker: 00:40:17

that's got the same moisture content as this

Speaker: 00:40:19

if this is stored at 65 and that's stored at 70.

Speaker: 00:40:23

And so we graph these.

Speaker: 00:40:24

So we would do isotherms in the lab,

Speaker: 00:40:26

Dr. Saari would do moisture absorption isotherms

Speaker: 00:40:29

to understand the relationship

Speaker: 00:40:31

of that ambient relative humidity

Speaker: 00:40:34

and how that impacts the moisture content.

Speaker: 00:40:36

And so you put that on a curve and now you understand.

Speaker: 00:40:38

And so that research that we did

Speaker: 00:40:41

really led to the idea of saying,

Speaker: 00:40:44

"Let's come out with a product now

Speaker: 00:40:46

that can reach different humidity."

Speaker: 00:40:49

We always had these available,

Speaker: 00:40:51

we just didn't market them in the cigar market

Speaker: 00:40:52

until 2004, 2005 when we came out with the brand Boveda.

Speaker: 00:40:57

But that research that we did with Fuente,

Speaker: 00:41:01

or not just Fuente, but all cigars,

Speaker: 00:41:04

because we would buy cigars all over the country.

Speaker: 00:41:06

We would do moisture absorption and isotherms

Speaker: 00:41:08

on the different tobaccos

Speaker: 00:41:09

to understand how each would behave differently

Speaker: 00:41:12

at different points in humidity.

Speaker: 00:41:14

We discovered and realized

Speaker: 00:41:15

that having different points in humidity for the humidor

Speaker: 00:41:18

is probably not a bad idea.

Speaker: 00:41:20

- [Tim] To be learning together at certain times

Speaker: 00:41:25

but a master at what he does,

Speaker: 00:41:28

it was a great experience, for sure.

Speaker: 00:41:31

- [Rob] Yeah, and you guys went down there

Speaker: 00:41:34

and he didn't call you until super late at night

Speaker: 00:41:37

to go to dinner.

Speaker: 00:41:38

- [Sean] Keep in mind, we were just barely barely

Speaker: 00:41:39

30 years old. I mean, we were probably 30, okay.

Speaker: 00:41:43

We were pretty young and raw trying to get a business going.

Speaker: 00:41:46

And every time it felt like we're getting some momentum.

Speaker: 00:41:51

And so we needed this kind of deal with Fuente,

Speaker: 00:41:55

wanted to put us on the map to give us credibility

Speaker: 00:41:57

and all those things were really important.

Speaker: 00:41:59

But the other thing is we're fans.

Speaker: 00:42:00

Think of being a, and you're a fan of cigars, big time.

Speaker: 00:42:05

- [Rob] Maybe. Just a little. - [Sean] Maybe.

Speaker: 00:42:07

And so that's kind of where we were.

Speaker: 00:42:10

And so we're thinking, "Can you believe it?

Speaker: 00:42:12

We're gonna go have a meeting with Carlos Fuente, Jr."

Speaker: 00:42:18

I mean, we were like on cloud nine.

Speaker: 00:42:21

- [Tim] Going to the Dominican Republic, never been there.

Speaker: 00:42:23

- [Rob] First time.

Speaker: 00:42:24

- [Tim] So excited to go down there.

Speaker: 00:42:25

We love cigars.

Speaker: 00:42:26

It's like, this is two kids in a candy store.

Speaker: 00:42:29

- [Rob] Had you ever been to a factory at that point?

Speaker: 00:42:31

- [Tim] No.

Speaker: 00:42:32

- [Rob] Never been to a cigar factory at that point?

Speaker: 00:42:33

- [Sean] No, not at that point.

Speaker: 00:42:34

- [Rob] So this is your first opportunity.

Speaker: 00:42:35

- [Sean] First total ever. - [Tim] First.

Speaker: 00:42:36

- [Rob] Oh, yeah.

Speaker: 00:42:38

Okay. - [Sean] Oh, yeah.

Speaker: 00:42:39

- [Rob] So set the stage.

Speaker: 00:42:40

- [Sean] I remember flying in because it was the

Speaker: 00:42:41

old airport, a tiny little thing and there were no jet ways

Speaker: 00:42:45

or anything like that.

Speaker: 00:42:46

You go down the stairway into the...

Speaker: 00:42:48

- And everyone-

Speaker: 00:42:49

- [Rob] Get off the plane outside.

Speaker: 00:42:50

- [Tim] Yes. - [Sean] People in the airport

Speaker: 00:42:51

are all lined up, they're cheering when they get there

Speaker: 00:42:53

for all their relatives, and all this kind stuff,

Speaker: 00:42:57

and was just different.

Speaker: 00:42:59

We never experienced that before.

Speaker: 00:43:01

So we got there-

Speaker: 00:43:02

[Rob] You thought, "Boy, these people really like

Speaker: 00:43:03

Humidipak. They're all cheering for us."

Speaker: 00:43:06

- [Tim] Yeah. That's right.

Speaker: 00:43:07

(all laughing)

Speaker: 00:43:08

- [Rob] Humidipak's here.

Speaker: 00:43:09

- [Sean] We're heroes.

Speaker: 00:43:11

- [Tim] No, but the experience, too, of getting off

Speaker: 00:43:12

that plane and then nobody came and picked us up, right?

Speaker: 00:43:17

- [Rob] You guys didn't ask him to send a big black car

Speaker: 00:43:20

and a limousine, or something?

Speaker: 00:43:21

- [Tim] Exactly, so- - [Sean] We had to figure out

Speaker: 00:43:23

how to get a cab. We didn't know where we were going

Speaker: 00:43:24

- [Tim] How do we get to the hotel?

Speaker: 00:43:25

- When we got into a cab.

Speaker: 00:43:26

- [Rob] You can't speak Spanish.

Speaker: 00:43:27

- [Tim] We don't speak Spanish at all.

Speaker: 00:43:29

It was an experience.

Speaker: 00:43:30

- [Sean] Gran Almirante is the hotel.

Speaker: 00:43:32

That's probably the only word

Speaker: 00:43:33

the cab driver heard and understood, so he took us there.

Speaker: 00:43:36

- [Rob] Gran Almirante. Okay, great.

Speaker: 00:43:38

- [Sean] Gran Almirante Hotel.

Speaker: 00:43:39

- [Rob] My Spanish is impeccable, so if you guys need help.

Speaker: 00:43:42

- [Sean] You can help us.

Speaker: 00:43:44

- Oh yeah, we got there.

Speaker: 00:43:47

We're waiting like, "Okay, Carlito he's gonna call.

Speaker: 00:43:49

He's gonna call, he said he'd call or whatever."

Speaker: 00:43:51

- [Tim] Yeah, he was gonna call us for dinner.

Speaker: 00:43:53

And I had left him some messages, but no-

Speaker: 00:43:57

- [Rob] Of course, the one-way phone call.

Speaker: 00:43:59

- [Tim] Yeah, the one-way. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:44:00

And we were waiting and waiting

Speaker: 00:44:03

and I can't remember.

Speaker: 00:44:05

We landed midday,

Speaker: 00:44:07

and so we went to the hotel and we were kinda...

Speaker: 00:44:09

- [Sean] Probably sat by the pool a little bit.

Speaker: 00:44:10

- [Tim] Sat by the pool, probably waiting and then-

Speaker: 00:44:12

- [Sean] Counting down the hours for dinner.

Speaker: 00:44:15

- [Tim] But had said, "Hey, I'm gonna pick you guys up

Speaker: 00:44:15

for dinner.

Speaker: 00:44:17

We're doing dinner tonight." And-

Speaker: 00:44:19

- [Rob] How nerve-racking to sit there for that many hours.

Speaker: 00:44:21

- [Tim] Well, we were keeping busy a little bit.

Speaker: 00:44:23

I think we walked down the street,

Speaker: 00:44:24

if I remember. - [Sean] Oh yeah, we did.

Speaker: 00:44:26

That's right. - [Tim] We walked down the street

Speaker: 00:44:27

to kinda check things out.

Speaker: 00:44:28

And Santiago's kind of a industrial little city.

Speaker: 00:44:31

It's not glamorous by any means,

Speaker: 00:44:33

I mean, there's just trucks, and buses,

Speaker: 00:44:35

and mopeds, and everything-

Speaker: 00:44:38

- [Sean] It is industrial all the way.

Speaker: 00:44:40

There is nothing glamorous.

Speaker: 00:44:42

We had nothing glamorous, nothing touristy about Santiago.

Speaker: 00:44:45

- [Rob] This is where business is getting done.

Speaker: 00:44:46

- [Sean] This is where all the factories, manufacturing,

Speaker: 00:44:49

Levi's was making the clothing there, everything.

Speaker: 00:44:52

Nothing pretty about it.

Speaker: 00:44:54

You don't wanna venture too far from the hotel

Speaker: 00:44:56

for all we knew, I mean, all that.

Speaker: 00:44:58

- [Tim] Yeah, so we waited, and waited, and waited

Speaker: 00:45:00

and it got to about like 9:30.

Speaker: 00:45:02

Okay, so, Sean and I, we've always shared hotel rooms

Speaker: 00:45:05

just because in the very beginning days

Speaker: 00:45:07

we didn't have a lot of money. So that was one way to save.

Speaker: 00:45:08

And so we've gotten ready for bed. It was like-

Speaker: 00:45:09

- [Sean] And us getting to bed, "He's standing us up."

Speaker: 00:45:10

- [Tim] He's gonna stand us up.

Speaker: 00:45:18

- We just got stood up.

Speaker: 00:45:19

We came all the way down here.

Speaker: 00:45:20

I wonder if we're even gonna get together.